We spoke to Darren Jones, who’s Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and began by asking what he thinks of the rebels.

Darren Jones: All of my colleagues in the Parliamentary Labour Party know this new Labour government was elected on a mandate to get a grip of the public finances and the economy because the public know, and suffered the pain, of when Conservative ministers lost control and crashed the market with higher interest rates, higher food prices and higher rents and mortgage payments. I understand it was a difficult decision today, but it’s one of a series of difficult decisions we’re going to have to make, to get a grip on the public finances so that we can fix the foundations and rebuild Britain.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Do you think people who vote on their conscience on these matters to defend constituents, though, should be punished by the parliamentary party?

Darren Jones: It’s for the chief whip to decide how to deal with the one Labour MP that voted against the motion today. But it’s very clear that the Labour government has the support of the Labour Party and indeed the House of Commons in taking the decision we’ve taken today in order to get a grip of the public finances.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: That MP who voted against the Government, Jon Trickett says he will sleep soundly tonight because he voted for his constituents. How soundly will you sleep knowing that some pensioners will go cold this winter and some may die as a result?

Darren Jones: So it’s a matter of fact that pensioners, which are the only group of people in British society protected against inflation with the triple lock on pensions, will be better off. £900 confirmed in April 2024 and from data today, it looks like it’s going to be over £450 confirmed from next April, at a time when energy bills are lower this winter than they were last. So it’s just factually accurate to say that pensioners are better off as a consequence of our commitment to the triple lock. And I would just say to Jon Trickett, the comments that he made, that this Labour government was elected to get a grip of the economy so that we can deliver better public services for people across the country so we can get the economy back on track and we can get away from people suffering the pain of the behaviour Tory ministers unleashed on the economy when they lost control only a year or so ago. I think people can rest easy knowing that the Labour government is going to do just that.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: This may be correct in terms of policy, that’s debatable, but it’s certainly been really politically damaging. Do you think it has been worth annoying, alienating, perhaps nine million people for £1 billion in saving?

Darren Jones: You’re right, Krishnan, to point out that the 1 to £1.5 billion that we save on the winter fuel payment means testing today targeted at the poorest pensioners that need it the most is only a small part of the £22 billion black hole in the public finances this year that we have to close as a consequence of the last Conservative government. But actually pensioners on the whole, as well as members of the public more generally, want to be able to get hold of their GP or get an appointment at their hospital or to be able to get the care they need in social care. We’re only going to get a grip of our public services if we get a grip of the economy and our public spending. And that’s why we had to take this decision today to target taxpayers money, pensioners that need it the most, whilst closing the black hole left to us from the Conservatives so that we can fix the foundations.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Right now you are the government that is famous for taking money out of pensioners’ pockets and for letting prisoners out of jail early. Is that something you’re comfortable with?

Darren Jones: I have to be clear, Krishnan, the issues that we’re dealing with in terms of the prison population or the black hole in public spending is a legacy of the Conservative government of the last 14 years. This Labour government has been in power now for, what, over just two months, and we are having to take the difficult decisions to deal with these issues, to fix those foundations, to reset the public finances so that we can start to deliver on our promises in the Labour manifesto and rebuild Britain. And as the public know, the first and most important mandate of our manifesto was about being trusted on the economy and being trusted with taxpayers money. That’s what this Labour government is delivering on.