We spoke to Tony Smith, a former Director General of the UK Border force and head of Border Control, who’s now a global border security consultant. We began by asking him if he thinks the government made a mistake by getting rid of the Rwanda plan.

Tony Smith: I think that the Rwanda plan was a very bold move by the previous administration to find an alternative destination where we could remove people who otherwise would be allowed to stay here permanently. It was an attempt to ensure that people who were thinking of crossing the channel would be deterred. That was a very bold move by the previous administration. Of course, we’ll never know now.

Cathy Newman: Do you think this government should be bolder than it currently is? It’s talking about this new command structure, it’s reopening these two immigration detention centres, which is exactly what the last government was doing. Do they need to do more, do you think?

Tony Smith: I think they’re indicating that they are interested in immigration enforcement. They said they’re going to provide additional detention accommodation. In my view, that is essential to raise removal figures. They’ve set a target for additional removals. And they said that they’re going to invest more in National Crime Agency resources to try and  investigate cases against the smuggling gangs.

Cathy Newman: One of these plans is to reopen these two immigration detention removal centres. One of them, Campsfield, was opened when you were head of Border Control in the 2000s – and there were riots, escapes, complaints about conditions there. Do you remember at the time thinking it was a bit of a dicey policy?

Tony Smith: I think if you’re going to talk about immigration detention, we need to talk about the Shaw Report in 2015. In my day, there were 4,000 detention beds available for immigration enforcement. That’s now been reduced to about 2,300. By extending Campsfield and Haslar, that will bring it back to about 2,500. But it’s still significantly less than we had ten years ago in the detention estate. And remember now, much of the immigration detention estate is occupied by foreign national prisoners because, of course, the prisons are full. So where we have criminals awaiting removal, deportation, they are also in the detention centres, which are much more secure than before. In fact, some of them are very much like prisons because they are housing criminals.

Cathy Newman: So what other options do you think need to be on the table here? Keir Starmer, for example, has floated the offshore processing centres that Italy is trying. Is that the answer or is collaboration with the EU the answer – and an honest recognition that the UK would then have to take a share of those asylum seekers that are being dispersed from the EU?

Tony Smith: The only real way to stop the boats would be to come to an agreement with the EU about what to do about people travelling between their countries and ours by irregular means. The EU would want to know, well what’s in it for us? Why would we do that? We’re already getting more asylum seekers than you are – which is true. Many countries like France and Germany have a greater intake than us. What would be in it? Now the only way through that would be some kind of negotiation through the new EU migration pact, which would say, look, why don’t we have a burden-sharing agreement that you take some asylum seekers we already have in the EU from Europe, and in return for that, we’ll accept those that come by irregular means back again. But remember, this is a global problem. It’s not just happening on the English Channel. There are people drowning in the Mediterranean, up on the West African coast people are drowning. There are people stuck in the Darién Gap between Mexico and the US that are dying there. There are huge global movements of people now, and we are seeing some of that on the English Channel. But I think we need to keep that in perspective when we look at this as a global challenge.

Cathy Newman: Doesn’t all of this demand a measure of political honesty that just isn’t there at the moment? When you think about the fact that 70% of asylum claims – roughly here – are granted. There’s a lot of people who are here because they’re fleeing war, they’re fleeing poverty, they’re fleeing climate change. They might have very good reason to apply for asylum. Haven’t politicians got to be honest with people that mass immigration is going to continue at these levels because of that?

Tony Smith: Well, I think it does. I think we are seeing an increasingly globalised world of movement. But then again, you’re challenging the traditional Westphalian model of borders, where sovereign countries have the right to decide who gets to come in and who doesn’t get to come in. I think that some people on the extreme left say, ‘Well, let’s not have a border at all’, and anyone can go and live wherever they want. Others on the right would want to build a wall around their country so nobody could get in. I think the answer is always somewhere in the middle, and that is where the political dice will actually land – in terms of what this government intends to do, about how many can come in and from where.